Very important info for all Ebay sellers!! MUST READ...

[miamiwax]

Ok.. ANYBODY selling an item on ebay to a country overseas needs to read this!!

This is what happened to me. I sold an item to France for approx 450$.. I shipped the item using priority mail service provided by USPS so item would have a tracking number in case of a dreaded "non receipt" dispute happened. Well, it happened and the buyer said he never received the package. NO problem right?? I figured I would be protected.. WRONG!!

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT ALL EBAY SELLERS.. IF YOU SELL AN ITEM OVERSEAS FOR MORE THAN 250$ YOU NEED SIGANTURE CONFIRMATION!!!!  If you do not have signature confirmation and a buyer says they never got their item.. EVEN IF YOU HAVE A TRACKING #.. EVEN IF THE TRACKING SAYS BUYER GOT THE PACKAGE PAYPAL WILL REFUND THEM THE MONEY.. NO EXCEPTION!!! MANY OF YOU ARE UNAWARE OF THIS POLICY!! WELL YOU'VE JUST BEEN WARNED BUY A GUY WHO GOT BURNED FIRST HAND!!!

The problem is that this gets even more confusing!!! Like so many other ebayers out there, I only ship through USPS...  USPS by far has the best rates around!! Paypal even seems to favor USPS too as they have online shipping ability through USPS offered on the site.  BUT.... PAYPAL IS NOT CLEAR ON HOW TO SHIP THROUGH USPS SO THAT IF YOU SELL AN ITEM OVERSEAS OVER 250$ YOU ARE PROTECTED!!! ABSOLUTELY NO WHERE ON THE SITE DO THEY EXPLICITLY SPECIFY WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO!! They offer nothing more than the broad statement that items over 250$ require signature confirmation.

I had a mixed experience as I called today. The first phone rep I spoke to was no help at all. I exlained to her my sitaution of just having to refund 450$. I explained my frustration that the package had a tracking #  and it clearly said buyer received that package. I also told her that I understand Paypal policy of having sginature confirmation and that to protect myself inthe future from this happening, what shipping method from USPS would protect me?? SHE COULD NOT GIVE ME A STRAIGHT ANSWER AFTER REPEATEDLY ASKING HER THE QUESTION DIRECTLY!! She always responded with "Paypal requires on all transactions over 250$ online tracking and signature confirmation. She could neot speficically tell me what method of shipping from USPS that would provide this!!  She even went as far as saying that Paypal does not recommend using USPS for overseas transactiosn over 250$!!! WOW!!

IS THAT ACTUAL PAYPAL POLICY TO TELL PEOPLE THIS??? WHERE THE **bleep** ON THIS ENTIRE SITE DOES PAYPAL STATE THIS??? HOW MANY OF YOU GUYS OUT THERE HAVE GONE THROUGH THIS SAME RUN AROUND??? HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE HAD TO REFUND BUYERS FOR THEM SAYING THEY NEVER GOT MERCHANDISE EVEN THOUGH YOU THOUGHT YOU PROTECTED YOURSELF??

My ray of light was a higher level rep named Robby who was the most helpful sincere person I'VE EVER TALKED TO IN ALL MY YEARS DEALING WITH PAYPAL. She may have even been a supervisor, I'm not sure..  She told me that if I shipped using USPS express service I would be covered because it provides tracking and a signature... HOORAY!! Well, almost.. The thing is that USPS offers Guaranteed Global Express and Express Mail International. I was unaware that they have 2 different types of express services  and unknowingly I didn't ask her to specify the exact "express" shipping method. So I still don't know EXACTLY what would cover me...

I'm trying despreately to get back in touch with Robby to get a clear answer. I called again and got the runaround  from another low level rep. I will try calling back tomorrow to get in touch. GUYS this lady is the real deal.. Super genuine and really seemed to me that she wanted to help me out!! If you are in my same situation I would suggest trying to get in touch with her to see if she could help you too..

I hope you all can see the line of furstration I'm experiencing. First off being out of the $$.. the fact  Pal is not clear on the site about their shipping and seller pritection policies. Also and more importantly, the difference in responses I'm getting from paypal employees themselves seems really suspect. I need to hear the final official ebay policy on this matter. I want it to be crystal clear.. black and white.. NO VAGUE GREY AREA.. if I ship a package overseas using USPS  and it's valued over 250$ what shipping service do I have to use through USPS to be protected from a non receipt dispute??

I might also note that USPS registered mail from what I undersatnd is NOT a valid form of  signature confirmation service!! I had a close friend of mine lose a dispute even thouh he shipped package via registered mail!!! Registered mail only provides tracking information to post office, NOT TO PAYPAL!!

Guys if you sell on ebay this is very important to you and your business. This is a loophole that scammers all over the world are using to their benefit. Most of us use USPS since their rates are usually substantially lower than competitors. If you are shipping big ticket items overseas and your item is not properly protected then you will lose a dispute every time!!

PLEASE PAYPAL HELP US ALL AND PROVIDE  DEFINITIVE ANDSWER TO THIS QUESTION!! PLEASE POST IT CLEARLY ON YOUR SITE SO ALL OF YOUR CUSTOMERS KNOW WHAT THEY NEED TO BE PROTECTED!!! I THINK SO MANY OF PAYPALS PROBLEMS COME FROM NOT BEING MORE CLEAR AND CONCISE WITH THEIR CUSTOMERS... I'M SURE MANY OF YOU AGREE!!!

[usps-scam]

**comment removed**

Courier doubful if any can provide electronic delivery confirmation or signature confirmation which paypal requires.  Courier probably will not delivery freight internationally at any reasonable cost.  International freight such as engines and other large bulky items that cannot be sent through the postal system needs to be delivered on a plane or ship.  Are you going to pay some courier service hundreds of dollars to do a signature confirmation for you?  Its probably not even electronically verifiable so best advice is not to accept paypal payments for items that cannot be shipped internationally by USPS with electronic delivery confirmation.  Always insure your items and use 3rd party insurance like inkfrog to be extra safe. Don't rely on paypal.  If you do accept paypal, then good luck because paypal isn't helping anyone. There is no seller protection if any. Do not trust paypals claims of seller protection, it is very stringent and limited. There are all kinds of catches and exclusions that will allow you to get ripped off.  

Thanks

[surplusdealdude]

**comment removed**

UPS, DHL, Loomis, Fedex, all the major couriers have online proof of delivery and available signature confirmation that is acceptable to Paypal.

Courier probably will not delivery freight internationally at any reasonable cost.

What's 'reasonable' to you may not be what's 'reasonable' to someone else.  I've had people pay hundreds of dollars in shipping to get my product because, when shipping and the product price are totalled, it's still cheaper than they can buy locally.

International freight such as engines and other large bulky items that cannot be sent through the postal system needs to be delivered on a plane or ship.

Strangely, most large couriers have planes.  UPS and Fedex offer a freight service.

If you do accept paypal, then good luck because paypal isn't helping anyone.

I've had 1 dispute and 1 hrgeback out of more than 2,000 sales - I won them both.  Of course, I follow the rules.

If you don't follow the rules, you serve to lose.

There is no seller protection if any. Do not trust paypals claims of seller protection, it is very stringent and limited.

Seller protection is iron-clad if you follow the rules.  You refuse to even LEARN the rules and then expect Paypal to make up the difference - they won't.

[usps-scam]

**comment removed**

I suppose you believe that everyone should read all the state local and federal and international laws so they can "follow the rules?" That way you won't be held liable for accidentally breaking a law that you weren't aware of???  Totally unrealistic and I am willing to bet that you haven't read all the rules and laws of the united states and all international nations since you do ship to foreign countries you need to be sure you follow their rules too right? Read all those law books right?  Thats totally unrealistic advice and totally unhelpful!   

Again, you were deliberately being unclear when you say Courier Service the first time, that implies a special courier outside of the major "Carriers" such as Fedex UPS DHL which you should have simply stated the first time instead of misleading everyone with "Courier". It seems you're only trying to create more confusion. People are here to seek help and guidance from eachother not to be slapped in the face with some full of himself jerk who wants to rub in their faces that they are dumb and he is smart and that all they have to do is figure it out themselves by reading the "RULES"! 

Its totally unrealistic to expect someone to pay hundreds of dollars to ship something by FEDEX DHL or UPSinternationally . Everyone that has gotten quotes knows their prices are triple or more than USPS Priority Mail.  And also,the limiting factor once again is size and weight for large bulky items.  Even Fedex and UPS and DHL have limits.  I like to see you ship a Porsche engine to the Ukraine or Nigeria by one of those carriers. Good luck! 

Realistically you have to find some special sea freight company that can give a decent price and is willing to take such type of cargo internationally and if you're not conveniently located close to a sea port, then guess figure on trucking by freight to the sea port and then transfer to a cargo ship, oh, be sure to figure out how to do this securely and provide electronic Signature Confirmation for paypal.   I am willing to bet that you don't know one company that can do this type of delivery and service for a good rate.  If you do, I dare you won't post it here because that's not your style. Go ahead say it again, "follow the rules..." you're a moron!

If the rules are not clear  cut and plain to see and read and easily posted in visible locations i.e.. (most decent retailers put a clear cut return policy on the back of their receipts or post it near the cash registers in plain site.) I wonder if you put any policy information in your auction listings for your customers to see? Or do you post a link and hide it on some other webpage in a very loooong winded "policy" that is full of convoluted and confusing difficult to read fine fine print legalese???" 

Think for analogy about traffic signs that say "DO NOT ENTER" for wrong freeway onramps or Handicap Parking Signs? I suppose in your view of life, those signs are not necessary or beneficial either and do not need to be posted those in an obvious location right? Since if everyone knew the rules then they wouldn't have an accident or get a traffic violation right??? Its stupid for you to keep saying that.

[surplusdealdude]

**comment removed**

Boy, this conspiracy-thingy's got you wrapped up tighter than a drum, doesn't it.

USPS is a scam ( from your ID), ebay and Paypal are rigging things against you, and I'm spewing disinformation, all according to you.

First of all, - nobody would bother to sabotage you when you are doing such an excellent job of doing it yourself.

Secondly, with a mindset like that, you can only fail - you're already looking for people and things to blame when you do.

Were you determined to succeed, you would do the work necessary to succeed.  But you lack that determination, of course.

Whether you read all the rules and regulations or not, they will continue to apply to you based on the legal principle that "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."  In a contract situation, not bothering to read the terms of the contract is also no excuse - you are still bound by them.

So, by your wilful ignorance, you are deliberately setting yourself up to fail - how smart is that?

As for your insistence that you want to 'improve' the paypal system, that's a fantasy - you don't even know what the Paypal system IS - how can you possibly hope to improve it?  Even if you had the power, which you do not.

Let me acquaint you with ANOTHER law that you seem unaware of - the right of free speech.  You have free speech, I have free speech.  Nowhere in there does it give you the right to determine or demand that I not exercise MY right of free speech just because it's messing up your daydreams.

I will continue to post where I please and when I please.

[usps-scam]

**comment removed**

OK, it is obvious that you have skill with words better than me and maybe many others on here, but still doesn't give you the right to waste our time with sarcasm and useless information. 

I don't care about your freedom of speech as an excuse to harrass and irritate other members of the community here. I am just asking for you to respect the rest of the people here who are not so high and mighty on your level and go away. If you cannot contribute anything better than sarcasm and put downs and insults then please do leave and don't post on here anymore. If you want to harrass people go somewhere else! 

I am sure you don't know every law and rule and term that exists in the world so obviously you live by willful ignorance just as well. and that statement about ignorance of the law is not an excuse is actually an excuse for tyranny and abuse of authority over people. 

Its not a conspiracy theory about you. We are not happy with the level of dishonesty and relentless defense of a huge source of frustration.

I can't understand why are you in such strong support of making it easier for fraud to be committed through ebay and paypal.  If you want to dismiss it as conspiracy theory go ahead, but it won't stop people from mistrusting your intentions. Its clear that you're not here to help anyone but your own ego.

[surplusdealdude]

still doesn't give you the right to waste our time with sarcasm and useless information

Information is jut information.  It is useful or useless based on the people that hold the information and what they choose to do with it.  If you choose to risk losing your money by not following the rules, that was your choice.  Don't whine about it when the inevitable happens and you do lose the money.

In actuality, I am offering you a priceless gift - the chance to understand why your life doesn't work.

It's because you don't do your homework.  And that's because you don't want to bother.

That is hardly useles information.  Uncomfortable, perhaps, because it hits close to home, but accurate, nonetheless.

I didn't bother with the rest of your blather.

I can't understand why are you in such strong support of making it easier for fraud to be committed through ebay and paypal.

Fraud on ebay and paypal is impossible without a willing victim.

Because you will not arm yourself with knowledge of the rules, you are the willing victim.

Fraud on ebay and paypal is almost impossible if you know the systems well enough.

[usps-scam]

Here's a piece of information for you .,,fraud goes on daily on ebay, thousands of people getting ripped off daily and you know why?  Because the paypal/ebay protection policies are not clear and imperfect.  It is an imperfect system and that is why people are still getting ripped of through paypal/ebay daily.  You can't deny that right?  But you can try and spread the lies to everyone by saying they didn't follow the rules and didn't do their homework. Well, sorry, I did do my homework and got straight A's 4.0GPA. I know how to do my homework, the problem is paypal/ebay change their policies with such frequency that a busy person can hardly keep on top of it. Ebay/Paypal should just do the right thing and back up the sellers more.. PERIOD!  Ask any seller who felt cheated by the weak ebay/paypal seller protection policies especially in terms of international sales, and I'm sure you'll find they are very passionate believers in this truth!

Go ahead, keep trying to say its a cospiracy theory, but you can't tell that to all those hardworking american's that just got ripped off by trusting ebay/paypal to look out for them when they sold to somebody in another country using ebay & paypal.  These hardworking american ebay sellers will laugh in your face if not get downright **bleep** off and bite your head off for daring speak such words.  You have alot of nerve to come out here and tell them its their fault.  Ebay & Paypal need to own up and admit the sad reality about the risks of selling internationally through their marketplace and payment services!

Its really sad. I think deep down you know the reality, but you can't admit it on these forums because of the fact that you're a paid employee of paypal and your job is at stake. You have been trained to say these things. Its your job to get on these boards and fiercely defend paypal and ebay's reputations.  If you didn't you'd probably be out of a job really fast. The sad thing is you act like you're one of us but you're not.  You couldn't be further from fitting in.  Its even more sad that you use the illusion that you are a regular member like the rest of us to get our trust so you can push your hidden agenda (and do your job).  I'm sorry but we see right through you...

Nice tray again superdude! But I'm afraid you're losing this battle of words for now.

Let me predict your next responses will probably say how this conspiracy theory is getting out of control blah blah blah and follow the rules. Can you say anything else? Maybe something more original? Something helpful? I bet not because probably you're highly restricted in what you say as a paypal employee because of the fact that what you say can be a liability for your employer (paypal/ebay). thats why you only speak in generalities and deliberately tell people to "figure it out yourself'" "do your homework, read the policies" "its your fault for not following the rules".  This way you don't run the risk of saying something that contradicts the latest version of the "Paypal User Agreements" and other legal documents.(since we've already seen that those things change with such great frequency that nobody can realistically stay abreast of every detail ... including you! )  Ha! 

p.s. I notice the longer my responses are, the longer it takes for you to reply. Of course, you can only read so fast, but I think you probably just feel a little lazy about reading such long winded messages don't you? You probably think your time is better spent elsewhere right? Well, at least you're getting paid to read and reply to these posts.  But that is exactly the feeling that everyone goes through when they are told to just go read the long winded multipage document called the paypal user agreement or as you refer to it "The Rules".  Maybe you're finally getting it? Maybe you already get it but you just can't say it because its against the "Rules" of your job...

[branboyce]

There's one thing you guys are forgetting through all of this, which is the true reason for this forum. We and PayPal are not, or should not, be automatrons, programed with the rules like computers. For example, I read one seller's dilemma  where he sold a $300.00 item to someone in the USA. USA to USA shipping, with "Delivery Confirmation", and lost an "Item Not Received" dispute, because according to the rules anything over $250.00 should have "Signature Confirmation".  This to me is a no brainer. Sometimes reason should overrule and render a just decision outside of the rules, but "rules for rules and nothing but the rules", is becoming PayPals slogan. Don't get me wrong, I understand the reason for rules, but when it comes to our laws in this country we have judges that render decisions, sometimes contrary to the rules, because reason renders proper justice.

[surplusdealdude]

Well, you won't find any of those judges at paypal.

It's really simple - you want to be protected, follow the rules.

Don't follow the rules, no protection.

The rules take 5 minutes to learn and they have never changed.

So quit complaining and get with the program.

[branboyce]

And for some reason you persist in not seeing the problem. This will be my last post on this one, so, rant on if you wish.