PayPal not honering Buyer Protection on my purchase.

[Sokpan]

I purchased some Star Trek ornaments for $155 from a site, seller was a store in China, which seller then send me a $10 puzzle.

I tried to contact the seller, but he had shutdown his website and emails to him were bouncing as non delivered.  I escalated the case to PayPal who then contacted the seller, the seller requested in order for me to get a full refund I had to ship back the $10 puzzle to him with my own money.  PayPal's escalation team requested I do this and only allowed me to respond with a Tracking ID for shipment of the returned item and wait till the seller received it to get my refund.

I refused to pay for the cost of return shipment, and PayPal just closed my escalation ticked without any further notification or any further action for me to follow.

How is this ''Buyer Protection'', since I was scammed out of $150 and was demanded to pay an extra $30 to ship back a $10 fake product, and PayPal takes the seller's side?  How can I get PayPal to reopen case and review my side of the story agian?

[sharpiemarker]

@Sokpan 

Yes, they are honoring the protection. They are forcing seller to accept return because seller could just as easily say, no returns to you.

Buyer protection does not include refunding you without a return in general. PayPal are not going to just let you keep item and money. If you do not return, no refund. It’s not about who has the moral high ground.

PayPal wants to resolve it quickly like this: Seller loses sale, forced to accept return and refund buyer. Buyer pays up front to return and apply for reimbursement. These transactions are sight unseen and PayPal is third party, so no one gets the upper hand because PayPal was not there when seller shipped and not there when you received.

“IMPORTANT: You may be required to return the item to the seller or other party we specify as part of the settlement of your claim. PayPal Buyer Protection does not entitle you to reimbursement for the return shipping costs that you may incur.”

https://www.paypal.com/gr/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?locale.x=en_US#buyer-protection

You may return item and apply for reimbursement if your return is eligible:

https://www.paypal.com/gr/webapps/mpp/refunded-returns

[Sokpan]

@sharpiemarker 

Thanks for the feedback, and information regarding "Buyers Protection". 

While I do understand and accept the need for PayPal to be fair and cover both the buyer and seller, and they need to resolve issues as fast as possible to avoid cases going longer than they should, in my case I still believe that I am in the right and PayPal did not bother to actually understand my issue, rather they sided with seller for the wrong reasons.

Agree, seller wants his products returned if I am not satisfied, and in my case I would have returned it if seller would pay for the shipping.  Let me again state that the following points:

1. Seller made the mistake to ship me the wrong product.  A product that was not nearly close to value of what I purchased, not even a product that was similar to what I ordered.  When a seller takes $150 from buyer, and ships them a $10 product that is a "scam" to me, and the seller should not argue or expect for buyer to pay for return.

2. PayPal should not have just closed my case when I requested further review of the case, after they asked for return of product to seller with tracking ID.  They could have at least given me a second chance and state the same information you stated, to just return the product and then open further case to ask for shipping cost refund.  They just close the case and refused my escalation, meaning the just took the seller's side.

3. Seller shutdown their website, which in my mind would trigger PayPal to check if this seller was indeed "scamming" money out of buyers.

The fact is, there was no "Buyer's Protection" in my opinion, and I am not stuck to try to get PayPal to get my refund back, while the seller continues to keep "scamming" other buyers with his PayPal account. 

We can discuss the merits of "Buyer's Protection" in how it should protech buyers, and how it is established to be unbiased, but there should not be a "one process fits all escalation" approach to simple follow the steps and make the wrong decisions.  "Buyer's Protection" and "Seller's Protection" should be a stand guideline that is followed, but only when PayPal or whomever actually takes the time to read the information from both parties and makes the right deciosion based on that specific case, not just say I have quota to fulfill so I close cases to not have to worry about them.

Regards.

[kernowlass]

@Sokpan 

They are doing exactly what they state they will do in their buyer protection policy.

In the event of a dispute you choose your seller and not Paypal so you need to bear in mind possible return trackable costs before you go ahead and buy from that seller / country.

Paypal state this >>
IMPORTANT: You may be required to return the item to the seller or other party we specify as part of the settlement of your claim. PayPal Buyer Protection does not entitle you to reimbursement for the return shipping costs that you may incur.

Although they will compensate you for some of the cost if you have activated this at some point before you made that transaction.
https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/FAQ3544

You also have the option to do a chargeback via your card issuer instead of a Paypal dispute if you funded your Paypal payment via a credit card.

[Sokpan]

@kernowlass I understand the need to cover PayPal and their policies, not sure you can just do this when clearly PayPal is not really understing the issue from either side. I have worked in customer support for over 15 years and have handled multiple escalations between customers and my company. There is a time to quote the policies and rules to a customer when they are not understanding correctly what the policy states, but there is need to first listen to them and understand their feedback to actually determine if they have any merit. You can't just follow a "black or white" approach to any issue, you have to make sure you are providing the level of customer support you state you are providing. Is a seller entitled to ask for buyer to pay for cost of shipping return in certain situations based on their policy? Yes they are. However when you clearly see that a seller is scamming people out of money, shouldn't you as a company make sure you are so protecting the buyer? If from what you are saying th seller is right because he has a policy on his website, then in my situation how can he prove this as he shut down his website completely. Just because he told PayPal he has a policy, and that policy somehow adhears to PayPal's Buyers Protection, without actually showing proof of his policy is simple unacceptable. Else what stops me from creating a website to say all sales are final with no refunds or return policy, scam money from buyers who think they are getting a very cheap deal, and I just send them a bag of dirt and refusing to provide refunds? Who is right here, the seller who has a policy that buyers should accept no matter what, or the buyer who clearly has been scammed. PayPal is not just a money transfer intermediate, they have to make sure both sides follow the agreement of the sale. What if I asked for seller to first ship the correct items to me, then when I got them to ship the initial product back to him? Would PayPal side with me or seller? You state also for me to go to my credit card bank, to get my issue resolved. That means my bank has to get PayPal to get me refund, while the seller still keeps my money. If all PayPal provides is a simple money exchange service without any accountability or responsibility, then we should all just stop using PayPal and used our credit cards directly and have our banks sort out the issues as they are to be trusted to have the better service than PayPal. It doesn't not have to come down to picking sides based on an automated process that is there to resolve hundreds of wrong escalations, there has to be a better policy and process to handle the exceptions. Clearly your feedback is to make sure people understand PayPal's policy and how they follow it, which is acceptable, but when the policy fails in such a situation, then what you state is not an actual solution to someone's issue it is simply a lesson for buyers to understand they have no protection from PayPal and should be wary of the service they provide. To say I am wrong here and should accept a general policy without taking the time to understand my issue, you are doing the same thing PayPal has done, which is to ignore the facts and just blank going with a automated answer.

[kernowlass]

@Sokpan 

What is reasonable from a ''merchant'' to offer you is completely different from what Paypal can offer you.

Yes the merchant 'should' pay return postage costs if you receive a faulty item but Paypal can't force them to do so.

If the merchant refuses to reimburse shipping costs then you have the option to file a claim in the small claims court or similar in your country, but you can't do that if the merchant is international.

So paypal offered to bail you out by offering you a refund on return of the item back to the merchant.

They also offer to reimburse you of some or all of those shipping costs.

You chose not to send the item back so you were not reimbursed, your call.

[Sokpan]

@kernowlass 

Yes, you are correct, it was my call to refuse the solution provided by the seller.  But where was my chance to counter offer a solution to the seller?  PayPal should have helped me understand that in this case this offer was my only option and I could also ask for reimbursement for shipping back the item, but that was not the case, they just closed my case.  Isn't this bad customer support experience?

Why can't PayPal enforce sellers and buyers to follow the rules of any transaction.  If the item I purchased was $1000 and all I got is a simple $1 piece of paper, you are saying PayPal should just let the seller dictate how and when he scams buyers with any accountability?  I would like to know when would PayPal block any seller from scamming buyers and close their account, or from what you say, PayPal can't do anything and lets scammers go unpunished.

I do appreciate you taking time to provide me and others a basic understanding of PayPal's policies or what buyers should be aware when buying from sellers using PayPal, but in my situation I don't feel this is a solution.  Policies are one thing, but there is accountability also for PayPal and any company to weed out scammers (be that buyers or sellers) and make sure the right party is covered and protected. 

Maybe the community was not the right path to get my case heard, and get an actual solution provided, so clearly my only steps is to wait till business hours to phone PayPal and have them review my case again.  Hope at least others reading my case and learn from my situation, rely less in PayPal's Buyers Protection to be safe with their transactions when dealing with questionable sellers and their policies. 

[kernowlass]

@Sokpan 

Paypal would not be able to check every individual seller / merchant / company in over 200 countries worldwide that adds paypal to their website to accept payments.

So they give some buyer and some seller protection. However that protection can never be a 100% coverall so you need to read it so you can risk assess your transactions.

Paypal never see the item the seller states that they sent OR what the buyer states that they have received so they have to make a judgement call.

If they find in favour of the buyer then the buyer has to return the item first, otherwise every buyer would just claim 'not as described' and keep the item sent as well as receive a refund.

They do stop bad companies from using Paypal when enough claims start rolling in.
However as they are in China (mostly) then its easy for them to just start over with a new name, so stopping them does not really do anything.

The best thing is to not buy from them in the first place and to spot them >>>

1. No return address on the returns policy. The site will look as if its in your country (where they despatch goods from) but they will ask for returns to go back to China (returns depot) at a shipping cost often more than the item is worth.
2. No contact telephone number. if you click on contact the most you will get is webmail or an email address.
3. Rarely company address information.
4. Great pictures of items at bargain prices that turn out to be tat.
5. Fake reviews.
6. Google and you can often see previous company names as they change them once enough claims roll in and Paypal stop them using their services and start over.
7. Send fake tracking numbers to win item non receipt of item claims.

[Sokpan]

@kernowlass 

Nobody asks PayPal to check all new accounts to make sure they are legit, that is impossible. However, when I or someone else provides PayPal proof of a scam, they need and should be help accountable to review and block that account. It is that simple.

PayPal never seems the items been sent or received, and there is potential for fraud from both seller and buyer, that is correct. And yes, the buyer needs to return the item they are not satisfied to get their refund back, but why should the buyer has to pay for return when the seller clearly scammed them. You mention before if the item was defective, the seller should pay for return of the item, how is that any different when the seller sends a different product to the buyer? And again in my case, the seller did not send me a similar product or something of same value, he sent me a $10 product instead of the $155 that I paid him.

Your suggestion what buyer can check before placing any order, is valuable information, but in the current world of internet online shopping, there is no way to validate a company that easy. I can create the most amazing website store, with all the right bells and whistles to entice buyers to purchase from me, and still scam them.

You are trying your best to provide an honest and realistic view of how PayPal can't protect everyone, even if they tried their best. I accept that and support you in how you are trying to provide this real opinion to frustrated customers like myself, but you also need to know that I am not one of millions getting scammed, there are thousands and PayPal needs to step up somehow to address as many of these escalated issues. Simply ignoring the issue as "too difficult to police" or "too many escalated issues to address properly" is not the answer.

I would have expected "Esteemed Advisors" like yourself you have been helping the community a lot longer than many of us, to first respond with the obvious response "I understand your frustration, and you are right to be frustrated that PayPal was not able to provide you the support you need, but you need to be aware that PayPal is not able to resolve all escalated cases the way people want".

Be a little empathetic to calm people down, understanding their frustration and why they are complaining, and then start providing the standard "canned response" of how policies and PayPal works, which will not always be solved the legal and right way.

I do appreciate your input, and I do understand where you are coming from, I know I might not get what I want in the end and have to be more careful next time I purchase anything. However, I do expect at the very least for PayPal to not just ignore my frustration and responses, by simple automating closing down my case because I did not provide a Tracking ID, and they should at the very least offer some type of feedback mechanism, so they know where they missed the ball and review their processes for the future.

[singhen]

I've gor exactly the same problem now. Ordered a tweed coat and got a toy coat, somethoing you would buy in  joke store made of some kind of nylon. Seller said the same I should return it and then I would get my money back. The store is closed now so how do I know the seller will refund me when they closed the case? As in your case paypal would be able to see website is no more so obviously a scam.