HORRIBLE IDEA TO HOLD FUNDS FOR 21 DAYS!!!

[gearhed78]

  Holding funds from sellers until the buyer leaves feedback is the worst idea EVER! Since when does Paypal become an authority on buyer satisfaction?? A smooth transaction is all that I wanted from Paypal. If they are going to hold funds, then they should make it very clear BEFORE you use them!  Keeping my money in their account for 21 days is a HUGE disadvantage of using Paypal. Stick to transferring funds,not trying to be a satisfaction authority!

[femsol]

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@tbfelton wrote:

.

"....If you see On Hold Ship Now next to your transaction, this means that the funds are in your pending balance and you must ship the item in order to receive your payment. So no matter what law you think they are break or any code they are not when you joined both paypal and ebay you agreed to the TOS you should have read all TOS before joining. One day people will wake up and smell the coffee everything is just in bold print READ THE FINE PRINT of all TOS."

---

With all due respect I suggest you read a prior post of mine regarding being governed by the TOS.  If found to be blantantly unfair or one sided then the TOS or parts of the TOS may be declared by a court of law to be void.

There are complicated legal issues as to what paypal is doing and acting as if they are above the law.

Here is my post from yesterday to surplus dude and to save you from going back a few pages here is the text:

Legally it is "my" money! Items sold, paid for by buyer, shipped by seller then of course the money is the seller's whether Paypal holds it or not.  Fees for goods or services rendered falls under the UCC The Uniform Commercial Code. These funds are certainly not Paypal's money although they are treating it like it is theirs after taking their fees and making interest on the funds held which is so unethical on so many levels.  It is a slap in the face of our laws and regulations.  They are not a bank, they have NOT  set up an interest bearing trust account for these holds-- it is outright illegal.  On top of that just because there is boiler plate language in a contract stating PayPal can do this or that we as seller's have no recourse does not mean it can not be contested.  If a contract attempts to circumvent one's legal rights or goes against applicable laws and regulations then the entire agreement and/or that section of the contract may be declared null and void if found to be fundamentally against the letter of the law.  A party to a contract, eBay sellers in this case, have certain inalienable rights that can not be waived by signing a contract.  PayPal is banking on the fact that because we accepted the terms and conditions at the time we signed up  that we are simply told that we agreed to this and have no recourse whenever PayPal changes the rules without notice or at their own discretion.  Paypal and the seller are parties to a contract and a basic requirement in contract law is that there is a "meeting of the minds".  Paypal would love us to be worn down and accept that fact that we agreed (did we?), accepted the contract terms so we should just go away and stop complaining.  On top of that there is equitable law to be considered that states that in order to be enforceable, a contract cannot violate "public policy" .

It would be so nice if people on these forums were not so negative and calling people stupid  or worse just because they are looking for support and answers.  eBay/Paypal certainly has not been very forthcoming with a reasonable explanation to this hold.  I for one continue, as do others who have been posting since day one, to support in anyway I can.

[tbfelton]

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@femsol wrote:

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@tbfelton wrote:

.

"....If you see On Hold Ship Now next to your transaction, this means that the funds are in your pending balance and you must ship the item in order to receive your payment. So no matter what law you think they are break or any code they are not when you joined both paypal and ebay you agreed to the TOS you should have read all TOS before joining. One day people will wake up and smell the coffee everything is just in bold print READ THE FINE PRINT of all TOS."

---

With all due respect I suggest you read a prior post of mine regarding being governed by the TOS.  If found to be blantantly unfair or one sided then the TOS or parts of the TOS may be declared by a court of law to be void.

There are complicated legal issues as to what paypal is doing and acting as if they are above the law.

Here is my post from yesterday to surplus dude and to save you from going back a few pages here is the text:

Legally it is "my" money! Items sold, paid for by buyer, shipped by seller then of course the money is the seller's whether Paypal holds it or not.  Fees for goods or services rendered falls under the UCC The Uniform Commercial Code. These funds are certainly not Paypal's money although they are treating it like it is theirs after taking their fees and making interest on the funds held which is so unethical on so many levels.  It is a slap in the face of our laws and regulations.  They are not a bank, they have NOT  set up an interest bearing trust account for these holds-- it is outright illegal.  On top of that just because there is boiler plate language in a contract stating PayPal can do this or that we as seller's have no recourse does not mean it can not be contested.  If a contract attempts to circumvent one's legal rights or goes against applicable laws and regulations then the entire agreement and/or that section of the contract may be declared null and void if found to be fundamentally against the letter of the law.  A party to a contract, eBay sellers in this case, have certain inalienable rights that can not be waived by signing a contract.  PayPal is banking on the fact that because we accepted the terms and conditions at the time we signed up  that we are simply told that we agreed to this and have no recourse whenever PayPal changes the rules without notice or at their own discretion.  Paypal and the seller are parties to a contract and a basic requirement in contract law is that there is a "meeting of the minds".  Paypal would love us to be worn down and accept that fact that we agreed (did we?), accepted the contract terms so we should just go away and stop complaining.  On top of that there is equitable law to be considered that states that in order to be enforceable, a contract cannot violate "public policy" .

It would be so nice if people on these forums were not so negative and calling people stupid  or worse just because they are looking for support and answers.  eBay/Paypal certainly has not been very forthcoming with a reasonable explanation to this hold.  I for one continue, as do others who have been posting since day one, to support in anyway I can.

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I am not  saying I 100% agree with this rule, heck I don't even like the hold time, but I sure feel better knowing I can shop with safe net for all the people whom do fraud us. Not trying to **bleep** people off, but this business is no different than any other business, we get **bleep**ed all day everyday it is no different is my point.  I am just saying complaining does nothing to solve this problem only makes it worse. If you sit and ponder on the problems you never get anthing done. Beside there is always Amazon close to same prices, you can even buy some things from Amazon listed which is an eBay item too. There terms are nothing like pay pals.I am just saying Pay Pal must have a good reason for doing this as it making alot of people mad, thus loosing business for them, I am guessing that doesn't over weigh the fraud they have can across before the holding rule.Like I said I don't like the hold periods either but I bit my tongue and go on, that is the flaws to doing business this way. If I don't like it enough I can take my business elsewhere if I feel the need but I don't at this point. Now the day Pay Pal holds my money and never returns it is a different story. I mean example like person leaves me positive feedback and 21 days are up and nothing is wrong with the transaction and they keep it in hold, then yes I will have a problem. So I seen your point of view from the start just I just know how the world works when it comes down to it, we have no rights to anything, when it comes down to it if the government desides to say nope you are wrong I don't care what laws are in place they can and have and will be over ridden my the high people of the world. It just how it works.So I say don't cry over the small things and remember in the end it is JUST MONEY. And yes i can say that I am part of the poor people like everyone else, but why stress myself over the small things like money when i have more than enough family friends and such in my life to be with than dealing with the small things in life. I just have a different outlook on life which many people don't understand. But I do understand you point just I think don't think it is something worth stressing over.

[femsol]

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@tbfelton wrote:

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I am not  saying I 100% agree with this rule, heck I don't even like the hold time, but I sure feel better knowing I can shop with safe net for all the people whom do fraud us. Not trying to **bleep** people off, but this business is no different than any other business, we get **bleep**ed all day everyday it is no different is my point.  I am just saying complaining does nothing to solve this problem only makes it worse. If you sit and ponder on the problems you never get anthing done. Beside there is always Amazon close to same prices, you can even buy some things from Amazon listed which is an eBay item too. There terms are nothing like pay pals.I am just saying Pay Pal must have a good reason for doing this as it making alot of people mad, thus loosing business for them, I am guessing that doesn't over weigh the fraud they have can across before the holding rule.Like I said I don't like the hold periods either but I bit my tongue and go on, that is the flaws to doing business this way. If I don't like it enough I can take my business elsewhere if I feel the need but I don't at this point. Now the day Pay Pal holds my money and never returns it is a different story. I mean example like person leaves me positive feedback and 21 days are up and nothing is wrong with the transaction and they keep it in hold, then yes I will have a problem. So I seen your point of view from the start just I just know how the world works when it comes down to it, we have no rights to anything, when it comes down to it if the government desides to say nope you are wrong I don't care what laws are in place they can and have and will be over ridden my the high people of the world. It just how it works.So I say don't cry over the small things and remember in the end it is JUST MONEY. And yes i can say that I am part of the poor people like everyone else, but why stress myself over the small things like money when i have more than enough family friends and such in my life to be with than dealing with the small things in life. I just have a different outlook on life which many people don't understand. But I do understand you point just I think don't think it is something worth stressing over.

---

I think you have missed the point entirely and you seem very complacent and cynical.  This is not the way it works at all unless you refuse to be proactive and just accept your lot in life.  I choose not to.  I am not stressing as I have moved on to other auctions and payment processors. I remain to help others in anyway I can. 

Your attitude is exactly why you think nothing can be done despite the laws and that is your choice but then why bother to post here anyway--it is depressing to read your outlook on life.  I take it your message is Paypal is right and we just have to deal with it because we have no rights???  Are you not aware that the last time PayPal held funds in 2002 a class action was formed and eBay settled for millions in 2004. 

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/nothing/paypal.asp

For me it is the principle of  the fact that Paypal feesl entitled to do as they please and are above the law.  As long as they have sellers such as you who will just lie down and accept the fact that " Pay Pal must have a good reason for doing this"  then nothing will change.

I have been on eBay as both a buyer and seller, When eBay took away the seller's right to leave feedback for the buyer such as non-paying bidders, then all of a sudden the buyer's needed protection from all of us fraudulent sellers.  What happened to the sellers who are scammed out of their money and their merchandise by fraudulent buyers.  This is now an open door to the buyers on eBay to take advantage of this situation--as a result who can actually sell on eBay anymore.  You actually think PayPal had a good reason? Yes there were good reasons--Paypal made money on the floats by holding our funds under the guise of protecting the buyer.

So you may accept this hold but many of us have not and have registered with letssuepaypal.com.

[tbfelton]

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@femsol wrote:

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I think you have missed the point entirely and you seem very complacent and cynical.  This is not the way it works at all unless you refuse to be proactive and just accept your lot in life.  I choose not to.  I am not stressing as I have moved on to other auctions and payment processors. I remain to help others in anyway I can. 

Your attitude is exactly why you think nothing can be done despite the laws and that is your choice but then why bother to post here anyway--it is depressing to read your outlook on life.  I take it your message is Paypal is right and we just have to deal with it because we have no rights???  Are you not aware that the last time PayPal held funds in 2002 a class action was formed and eBay settled for millions in 2004. 

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/nothing/paypal.asp

For me it is the principle of  the fact that Paypal feesl entitled to do as they please and are above the law.  As long as they have sellers such as you who will just lie down and accept the fact that " Pay Pal must have a good reason for doing this"  then nothing will change.

I have been on eBay as both a buyer and seller, When eBay took away the seller's right to leave feedback for the buyer such as non-paying bidders, then all of a sudden the buyer's needed protection from all of us fraudulent sellers.  What happened to the sellers who are scammed out of their money and their merchandise by fraudulent buyers.  This is now an open door to the buyers on eBay to take advantage of this situation--as a result who can actually sell on eBay anymore.  You actually think PayPal had a good reason? Yes there were good reasons--Paypal made money on the floats by holding our funds under the guise of protecting the buyer.

So you may accept this hold but many of us have not and have registered with letssuepaypal.com.

---

I understand all to well what doing nothing means,as I myself am in a terrible boat myself.But as a lawer actually 3 different lawyers told me.It is hard to do something about things while still under the contract of the business. See my auto loan currently is at 25% plus instead of a late fee I incure daily intererest ever day I am like so for example if I am late for 10 days I am charge for all 10 days THREE times, in Alabama that is illegal but as long as I am under the signed contract I can do nothing. I have to wait till the whole loan is paid in full and be out of the contract to legally do anything. And this came from lawyer. Not to mention the lawyers even told me why waste my time over it I would never get anything cause big companies find their ways around our legal system. That is my point. And why do a class action on Pay Pal I have been thru a class action myself once about 4 years ago took 4 years to get my money, and because their was so so many of us you know what my "BIG" settlement was a whole $2.59. So that is why point, It just isn't worth it to me. And guess what even if you file a class action Pay Pal can resolve it pay the money out to each person and still run business just as they are now. And why? Cause they are doing it now.They have done had one class action and that didn't seem to stop them from doing the hold time. And by the way the hold time isn't so bad, I have only sold 4 things within the last month and my last 2 I sold yesterday don't even have holds on them, because I met the requirements to remove the hold time. Isn't it funny how things come out in the wash. Sometimes it is better to let things sit a bit before getting all mad about them. Sometimes things are what seem to be worth fighting but not really in my book.See I live in a small remote town we only have one form of water, power,and gas to use. Guess what those three BIG companies **bleep** with us all the time in ways they can't legally do , but we have NO CHOICE but to lie down and take it, as we have to have water, power, and gas. If we fight them they just make it worse for us all. And trust me they do I have tried before, and I tried sueing the power company for they illegal actions, and 20 mins after the suit was filed to them and they recieved the copy of it, my power was OFF.Tell me how legal that is.But guess what I had to drop it cause I needed power in my house more than I needed my rights. And I wasn't going to be in court with the company for another two months. I couldn't go without power for two months.I have small kids in the house. So yes I have a so called "bad" outlook on life, but it is because I have opened my eyes to how corrupt these big boxed companies can be and us small fish don't even put a dent into them, so why try.Somethings in life are just too much more important that this. Like I said thought I want you to know I DO UNDERSTAND you 100% just my past problems cause me to give up. with no choice. I think it is wrong too, but what I am one person, wow and even if thousands of people do something about it they will keep doing it until the actual LAW makes them stop.No class action or anything will stop them from this. Only a judgement in favor of them stopping it will do so. And as of yet no judge has done this, so it is a waste until they are stopped from doing. Now I agree they should be stopped, but until someone comes up with a GOOD very GOOD way to stop them what is the point in fighting it.

[femsol]

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....But as a lawer actually 3 different lawyers told me.It is hard to do something about things while still under the contract of the business. See my auto loan currently is at 25% plus instead of a late fee I incure daily intererest ever day I am like so for example if I am late for 10 days I am charge for all 10 days THREE times, in Alabama that is illegal but as long as I am under the signed contract I can do nothing. I have to wait till the whole loan is paid in full and be out of the contract to legally do anything. And this came from lawyer. Not to mention the lawyers even told me why waste my time over it I would never get anything cause big companies find their ways around our legal system. That is my point. And why do a class action on Pay Pal I have been thru a class action myself once about 4 years ago took 4 years to get my money, and because their was so so many of us you know what my "BIG" settlement was a whole $2.59. So that is why point, It just isn't worth it to me. And guess what even if you file a class action Pay Pal can resolve it pay the money out to each person and still run business just as they are now. And why? Cause they are doing it now.They have done had one class action and that didn't seem to stop them from doing the hold time. And by the way the hold time isn't so bad, I have only sold 4 things within the last month and my last 2 I sold yesterday don't even have holds on them, because I met the requirements to remove the hold time. Isn't it funny how things come out in the wash. Sometimes it is better to let things sit a bit before getting all mad about them. Sometimes things are what seem to be worth fighting but not really in my book.See I live in a small remote town we only have one form of water, power,and gas to use. Guess what those three BIG companies **bleep** with us all the time in ways they can't legally do , but we have NO CHOICE but to lie down and take it, as we have to have water, power, and gas. If we fight them they just make it worse for us all. And trust me they do I have tried before, and I tried sueing the power company for they illegal actions, and 20 mins after the suit was filed to them and they recieved the copy of it, my power was OFF.Tell me how legal that is.But guess what I had to drop it cause I needed power in my house more than I needed my rights. And I wasn't going to be in court with the company for another two months. I couldn't go without power for two months.I have small kids in the house. So yes I have a so called "bad" outlook on life, but it is because I have opened my eyes to how corrupt these big boxed companies can be and us small fish don't even put a dent into them, so why try.Somethings in life are just too much more important that this. Like I said thought I want you to know I DO UNDERSTAND you 100% just my past problems cause me to give up. with no choice. I think it is wrong too, but what I am one person, wow and even if thousands of people do something about it they will keep doing it until the actual LAW makes them stop.No class action or anything will stop them from this. Only a judgement in favor of them stopping it will do so. And as of yet no judge has done this, so it is a waste until they are stopped from doing. Now I agree they should be stopped, but until someone comes up with a GOOD very GOOD way to stop them what is the point in fighting it.

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tbfelton,

I have never seen such a defeatist attitude before--I feel sorry for you.  However you and others with your misinformation and convulted reasoning and logic have frustrated me to no end.  I do not know if you along with several other posters to this forums are PayPal dummies but I have better things to do then try to change your mind.  FYI I am a lawyer and have not disclosed that in the forums but am tired of hearing all of the wannabe lawyers providing misinformation.  I do legal consulting for firms regarding Federal Law.  So three lawyers told you not to waste your time--by all means do not waste your time.  As far as class actions, one they cost nothing, the paperwork you have to sign is minimal, no court appearance and you think that is too much of an effort?!! You have expended more time  posting your long views here than you would ever have to in a class action.  You think eBay does not care if they have to settle another class action--ever hear of stockholders?  This information has to be disclosed at the yearly meeting of a company's stockholders and will have an impact on their stock price.  I am not involed for a potential payout but to help correct a wrong.  Buyers will most definitely find out about this and more and more sellers will be out their merchandise and their money.  Hopefully more and more sellers are turning to other auction  sites and payment processing such as Paymate or Google Checkout. and now that Amazon is catching up to eBay and google entering the market it will be interesting to see what further changes are made.  So good luck all.

.

You want nothing to do with anything unless someone has a really GOOD idea. Have you at least written a complaint to the FTC or BBB. 

[mrs5pennies]

After watching, reading, and replying to many of these posts, I've searched and searched for answers.  The European Union, come May, is going to require all online sellers to have brick and mortar stores.  Ok,  what that means for Ebay is that any current sellers from Eurpose who do NOT have a brick and mortar store, will have to find another online auction site on which to sell their wares...Gee, Ebay, what will you do when that happens since huge numbers of your sellers are from the European market????  Ebay will lose a tremendous market, just by that alone.  Now comes the lowly sellers who's country is NOT requiring them to have those brick and mortar stores - uh, what sellers, Ebay??? The ones that you've kicked one too many times have not stuck around for more of the same.  They've gone on and found other online auction sites that do not charge you an arm and a leg, do not require you to use Paypal, do not tell you what kinds of payments you must accept, and when using another avenue for online payments such as Google Check out, do not hold the sellers money for any reason whatsoever.

I have just found an online auction site, webstore dot com, where everything is totally free!! No listing fees, no final value fees....Whatever a seller sells their wares for, goes to the seller!!!   The seller chooses the type payment they will accept, including Paypal if the seller wants to do that, and Google Check out.  A seller can set up a store FREE!!!

I have just registered for this site and it appears that it has everything that Ebay sellers have been dreaming about.  The only thing they don't have is the recognition currently held by Ebay.  But, then again, Ebay didn't have that recognition either.  We, sellers and buyer alike, gave that to them.  We can also give it to someone else and let them have a chance at what Ebay had.

It's up to you, people - like I said, it's sellers and buyers alike............................. 

[DIANN]

NOT A DEFEATEST ATTITUDE.  I REALLY CAN UNDERSTAND,  I HAVE BEEN THRU ALL OF IT MYSELF PLUS, AS A CREDIT MANAGER, MANY TIMES.  BOTH AREAS, YOU SETTLE FOR PENNIES ON A DOLLAR.  THE ATTORNIES KEEP SO MUCH, AFTER THEY DEDUCT EXPENSES & FEES.  THEY MAKE OUT FROM LAW SUITS LIKE THIS.  EVERYONE, START USING A DIFFERENT AUCTION SITE.  SITES THAT ARE 100% FREE GIVES ME TO QUESTION.  THE SITE HAS EMPLOYEES, ETC.  THEY CAN'T TAKE MONEY OUT OF THEIR POCKET TO PAY EXPENSES, INCLUDING EMPLOYEE PAYROLL.  I AM SURE THE PEOPLE WHO START THE SITE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE SOME MONEY FOR ALL OF THE TIME NEEDED TO OPERATE THE SITE.  IT SHOULD JUST BE REASONABLE.  IT'S THE TOP PEOPLE, LIKE CEO'S, WHO TAKE SO MUCH MONEY THAT IT IS PARTIALLY RESPONSABLE FOR THE STATE OF THE ECONOY NOW, & KEEP THE REST OF US SO UNDERPAID THAT WE ARE LIVING ON THE EDGE ALL OF THE TIME.  ISN'T THAT WH AT DICTATOR COUNTRIES DO & WHAT ROME DID?  MAYBE AN ON LINE CHAT WITH SELLERS WHO ARE WILLING TO TAKE ON SOME RESPONSIBLITY ON A SHARED BASIS,  SOMETHING LIKE FOOD CO-OPS WORK. FIND OUT WHO IS WILLING TO PUT IN TIME TO CREAT AN AUCTION SITE, LIKE AN EMPLOYEE OWNED COMPANY.

[anb76]

I feel like paypal is being unfair to me even if Im just a new seller here on ebay. Its my first time to sell an item and when I ship it last feb 12 and completely delivered feb 16 I still dont get my money and its still pending. While on the other hand, I purchase an item feb 12 and paid it and after 3 days the money was taken from my bank account but I still dont have the item. I tried to contact both person whom Ive sold the item and the other item that I purchase from different person but I dont get any answer from both of them. Also there are people here that dont mark on shipping after they ship the item. Both of them didnt put a feedback on me as well. It says I will need a positive feeback too before the payment is release. How come this other person that I paid for the item already got my money when I didnt put a feed back on him yet coz I dont have the item yet. I feel paypal is being unfair.

[anb76]

I feel like paypal is being unfair to me even if Im just a new seller here on ebay. Its my first time to sell an item and when I ship it last feb 12 and completely delivered feb 16 I still dont get my money and its still pending. While on the other hand, I purchase an item feb 12 and paid it and after 3 days the money was taken from my bank account but I still dont have the item. I tried to contact both person whom Ive sold the item and the other item that I purchase from different person but I dont get any answer from both of them. Also there are people here that dont mark on shipping after they ship the item. Both of them didnt put a feedback on me as well. It says I will need a positive feeback too before the payment is release. How come this other person that I paid for the item already got my money when I didnt put a feed back on him yet coz I dont have the item yet. I feel paypal is being unfair.

[AGAINSTEPAYFAIL]

Poster Armantiques has it right!

We should all let the buyers know that since Epayfail is holding our cash (INCLUDING SHIPPING COSTS!!?) and we have not received that money, that we cannot ship as fast.

Thanks!